<

Ouma Mietjie Jochem

Translation of transcription of a recorded interview with Ouma Mietjie Jochem, conducted by Martin Mössmer, with Oupa Niklaas (Poon) van Rooy
Location: Breipaal, Douglas, Northern Cape
Date: 14 September 2018

Underlining indicates emphasis

MJ= Ouma Mietjie Jochem
NvR= Oupa Niklaas (Poon) van Rooy
MM= Martin Mössmer

MJ Oh… let’s go on.
[laughing]
I am getting so old now and…half confused.
NvR Heavens.
MM Sorry Ouma, Ouma kan tell us now.
NvR Ouma can now, can now speak.
MJ Uh, things I thought I had I can’t remember now. When I sit like this, and I really… a hat covers that thing… [?] What is it for? [inaudible]
NvR It’s only [about] the history.
MJ Oh.
NvR Yes, how you grew up, before you became a young girl.
MJ Hmm.
NvR And how you went into the world and where. When you married and how you… where you stayed and so on.
MM Where was Ouma born?
MJ Uh, I was born in Strydenburg, yes, I was born there. I think when my late mother said, ‟Little Mietjie is a day old today”, I received those words and little things and nothing else. I kept on working, kept on working but now I can do absolutely nothing, [inaudible] nothing. I stand around and eat the people’s food.
[laughing]
NvR Your time has run out.
MJ The time has run out, as you can see, but it is only this side of the leg because I fell on that big stone, goodness me, and it is slowing me down. Oh well, I’m not worried because I am that auntie now [i.e. that’s the way things are].
NvR So Auntie lived in Bucklands as well?
MJ Yes, I lived in Boklands, we lived there for years, but I grew up mostly here and then I also worked for that old nooi [lady] and then at Harry Ford.
NvR Old Faan Visser.
MJ Uh thank you.
NvR You became an adult woman there.
MJ Became a young woman, but I still hung around [?], went to church, went to Blinkpunt [part of Breipaal]… and from there I got old Wapa. [her late husband]
NvR Hmm.
MJ And the two of us stayed together, and this old man suddenly got a stomach illness, but the people look at you and if they cannot use magic to cure you, they turn from you, you have to go, what is the…[inaudible], but I couldn’t worry, because I was at the (Dutch) Reformed Church.
NvR Hmm.
MJ And look where I moved to, I came to live here. Do you know it? Yes. Tomorrow I want a Rand, but I feel rather good that I stayed there and there I didn’t have the courage, all that teek [cheek?] Hmm.
NvR Did Auntie have stock, have animals and so on?
MJ Yes. My late father had… goats and those goats were slaughtered and eaten and we had to…
NvR Because the boer [farmer] said he didn’t have enough grazing.
MJ Hmm and the boer paid the old grown-ups three and threepence [3s.3d.], not to mention [inaudible] and we children had to help too and maybe you earned a Rand and you had to be satisfied and it actually isn’t money.
NvR Hmm.
MM Hmm.
MJ They gave the people a small bucket of bread flour, maize meal and all that tea [inaudible] after all. You had to look after yourself, but listen, we are still here, just see what we look like [inaudible] we’re still alive on bread. We suffered bitterly, walked barefoot, halfway to school. You cannot learn because the frost is so bad your feet hurt, but we are still here my prayer-brother. [both churchgoers]
NvR Hmm.
MJ Some children did not suffer so badly, Lord knows, but I am glad that I am still on the [right] path this morning, my brother.
NvR Hmm.
MM Hmm.
MJ If I say…
NvR Chief, you can see she is half senile.
MM Hmm.
MJ Yes.
NvR She doesn’t recall anymore [inaudible]
MM No.
MJ I am like this now… All [or Only] consolation now that the girl has passed on, Poppie… she had the whole… out.
NvR You mustn’t take off your jacket now, man.
MJ But I am hot.
NvR No, it’s cool inside.
MJ No, my brother, it’s not as cool as you think.
MM And did Ouma go to the river when Ouma was a hokmeisie? [adolescent]
MJ No God, I never even went to the river.
NvR No, she wasn’t at the river.
MM Oh, didn’t Ouma go?
NvR Hmm.
MJ Hmm, I was never actually at the ǀ’habasas [‘initiation’] stuff.
MM Hmm.
MJ I wasn’t there.
MM And Ouma…
MJ I’m only an old dancer, I come and sing, for years now.
MM Hmm.
MJ And now? A teenager is like the boere, women don’t go to the hokke anymore, although there are one or two old people who chase the young ones to the hok.
NvR Hmm.
MJ Do you see? I say there is actually something hidden in the hokke, something you don’t know anything about, better to leave it alone, jump…
MM Hmm.
MJ Reckless [an obsolete meaning of ‛roekeloos’ is wicked, sinful] words that hurt are used against you, do you see? Like my old thing, my old ouma [inaudible] I don’t worry anymore, now I see old things, see how they stand, young youngsters are…
MM Hmm.
NvR If mama now… auntie and ma often dance the sack dance, koelapper [the name of a dance]
MJ Hey, your [NvR] mother went that way en I took my way, but no, the Lord helped her to become so old, although it isn’t old, this thing that she… I don’t know what she was looking for in that place, the place where we came from, moved away from… and she went and worked there again and that job was the cause that she is lying there, your old mother, that she is lying there now. And I was still on my way, there when I heard, ‟Huh-uh, that woman is in Kimberley.” ‟What is wrong?” ‟Hmm-mm, they cannot understand.” Then she died [? was killed]. I said, no, they are like that, they see what that woman possessed, because only possessions [inaudible], both of us in one, I said. They are simply jealous.
NvR Hmm.
MJ Hmm jealous is what they did to me, look at where I am now, at this woman, my house is big, given a big house which is here after all. [indistinct] The house is here, but the children…
NvR So Ouma tried, uhm uhm, but Ouma could not get auntie into the hok and she didn’t speak the language with Ouma, did she?
MJ Hmm-mm! We took no notice of those… those Grukwa-languages… My late mother spoke the Grukwa-language well and this ouma of mine, she has also passed on… We were taught like this, like I am here and there and to this side, hey, then I say you have to look at xuku [‘things’], and not kabasa [sic ǀ’habasas ?] there…
NvR Hmm.
MJ Nothing, brother. You saw how, how your ouma spoke. It’s only late great-grandmother, who was a Sleper [surname] of the boesmans, Grukwas, [s]he was a Sleper. As I sit here now, I don’t know anything, even though she spoke a language…
[laughing]
I don’t know anything, only boer-language, it’s all we know, nothing further. Look you sleep [?] your ears, pa did the same, they sleep [might mean using a language] among each other, [inaudible] then I can say, ‟Hey, don’t xuxu [?] like that, you have to go and look.”
NvR Hmm.
MJ Hmm. And more than this, my child, I cannot say because those grown-ups [old people] they had this, but we had to get away, get away because those people hit us.
NvR Hmm.
MJ They spanked us, my oumas, but I’m not even annoyed about it, I’m here this morning on my [inaudible] If I hadn’t been hurt so much, I probably wouldn’t be sitting here, would have been gone long ago…
MM Hmm.
MJ [inaudible] God has me, nothing more now, only gratitude that I am here this morning to hear words.
NvR That Tsiiǁ’hoa [‘God’] is still with you.
MJ Hmm?
NvR Are… you are just happy that Tsiiǁ’hoa [‘God’] is still with you.
MJ Hmm-mm, you [NvR] are just your mother’s child. If I stay alive I would like to go to Kimberley [hospital], with this side, which is giving me hell.
NvR Hmm.
MJ [indistinct] Tsiiǁ’hoa [‘God’], got quite a few souls, it’s poor if you have absolutely nothing, but to make me poorer, do you know, Lord, I don’t worry.
NvR So you have only the time when Ouma wanted to learn and what uh when you were at the [inaudible] (Hey! [shouting at children] You!) How Ouma, auntie grew up with my grandmother and talked and so on, uh.
MJ Hmm, but I talked, I did not think about it.
NvR Auntie was actually a fugitive?
MJ I didn’t really talk to them, because without any reason it was said, “Go away and mess over there!”
NvR Uh.
MJ ‟[We] don’t mess with children.” When there are grown-ups here, and they were cross. You sit and enjoy listening to what is spoken when he suddenly hits his chum. We didn’t grow up like that, we actually [inaudible]. And what, uh, late father said, ‟Ooh… this is the first time I see what such [inaudible], you can leave, you can leave – then you can hear… listen to what they are talking about.” Comes [without] any sign, but I don’t worry, man, I am glad I don’t hang around anymore.

**********

Transcription of a recorded interview with Ouma Mietjie Jochem, conducted by Martin Mössmer, with Oupa Niklaas (Poon) van Rooy
Location: Breipaal, Douglas, Northern Cape
Date: 14 September 2018

Underlining indicates emphasis

MJ= Ouma Mietjie Jochem
NvR= Oupa Niklaas (Poon) van Rooy
MM= Martin Mössmer

MJ O… maa’ aangaan, jong
[laughing]
Ek raak nou so oud en… half deurmekaar
NvR Vader
MM ‘skies ouma. Ouma kan maar vertel
NvR Nou kan ouma, nou kan jy praat
MJ Uh, dinge wat ek gehat het is uit my gedagte uit. Kyk dan sit ek so, en ek het rerig… h’n hoed maak toe maar daai ding… [?] Nou, vi’die wat is dit? [inaudible]
NvR Dis maar net die geskiedenis
MJ O
NvR Ja, hoe jy grootgeword het, voor jy djongmeisie gebegin word’et
MJ Mmm
NvR En hoe’t jy die wêreld ingegaan, en waar, toe’s jy trou, en wat en hoe’t jy, waa’t jy gebly, so so
MM Waar’s ouma gebore?
MJ Uh, ek het in Strydenburg gebore, ja ek is daar gebore. Toe, ’k meen toe my oorlede ma my sê, “Klein Mietjie is nou vandag ‘n dag oud”, toe ontvang ek maar daai woordjies en goetertjies, en verder daarvan niks’ie, bly ek maar so in’ie werke, bly ek maar so in’ie werk, nou kan ek totaal niks maak, [inaudible] niks, staan maar net rond, die mense se kos op eet
[laughing]
NvR Jou tyd is nou uit
MJ Die tyd is uit, jy sien dan, maar jong die net hier’ie een kant van die been want ek het mos op ‘aai gróót klip geval, jissie jong, en hy sit my nou ìn, nou ja ‘well’, ek ‘worry’ nie wan’ ek ìs nou maar daai antie
NvR So antie’t in Bucklands o’k gebly
MJ Ja, ek het in Bóklands, daa’ o’ af het ons ja’re gebly o’k daar, maar hier bo het ek maar die meeste hier kom groot geword en toe werk ek o’k by daai ou nooi, toe’s ‘it daar Harry Ford
NvR Ou Faan Visser
MJ Uh, dankie.
NvR Daa’t jy nou ‘n groot vrou heeltemaal gemaak
MJ H’n jongmeitjie geword, maar nog maar aan die pale gehang, kerk geloop, Blinkpunt [deel van Breipaal]… ‘t ek gegaan, en daarvan af kry ek mos nou vir ou Wapa [haar oorlede man]
NvR Mmm
MJ En ons twee het maar so gebly en g’bly, en hierdie ou man o’k skielik o’k maag gekry, maar die mense kyk jou mos, ‘s hulle jou nie ka’ goed-toor ‘ie dan keer hulle jou, jy moet maar gaan, wat is die [inaudible], maar ek kon’ie ‘worry’ nie, maar ek is darem o’k by HK [d.w.s. Hervormde Kerk]
NvR Mmm
MJ En kyk waar, het ek óp getrek, weer kom gebly hier, ken jy daar? Ja. Dan wil ek môre ‘n Rand hê, maar ’k voel nogal lekker, dat ek daar gebly ’et en daa’t ek’ie poep-moedigheid [? dalk ‘kloekmoedigheid’] gehet nie, al ’aai teek [?] mmm
NvR Het antie diere-goe-, diere o’k gehet en so aan?
MJ Ja, me oorlede pa het… bokke gehat, en dié bokke het hulle maar so opgeslag en ‘ie eet, en moet o’s ma’…
NvR Want die boer het gesê hy het’ie veld’ie
MJ Mmm, en’ie boer h’t ma’ vir o’s drie en tiekie die ou grootmense gebetaal, on’ praat’ie eens [inaudible] en ons moe’ daar help o’k, kry miskien ou Randjie en jy moet tevrede wees, en dis’ie tjeld’ie
NvR Mmm
MM Mmm
MJ Hulle tjee mos nou darem die mense darem so emmertjie broodmeel, mieliemeel, al ‘aai tee-[inaudible] djy moet maar self sien hoe gaan jy jou dinge reg kry, maar hoor’ie, o’s is darem daar, kyk hoe lyk ons [inaudible] gelewe, ons is darem daar met brood. Daar is so bitter swaarkry, kaalvoet geloop, halfpad skool toe, jy ka’ eers goed leer’ie want die ryp is sò, kannie hou ‘ie pyne van’ie voete, maar o’s is darem daar my bid-broer [altwee is kerk mense]
NvR Mmm
MJ Party kin’ers va’môre is ‘it so hàrd gedinges’ie, Here waar, maar ek is darem bly va’môre, ek is dare mnog op’ie pad, my broer
NvR Mmm
MM Mmm
MJ As ek nou sê…
NvR ‘Chief’, ‘chief’ sien, hy’s half tjens’rig
MM Mmm
MJ Ja
NvR Hy on’hou nie meer [inaudible]
MM Nee
MJ Ek is nou so…. Wit troos nou dat die meisiekind nou oorlede is, Poppie… hy’t die hele, uit
NvR Jy moe’ nou nie die baadjie uittrek’ie, man
MJ Ek kry dan warm
NvR Nee dis dan koel binnekant
MJ Nee, my broer, dis so koel wat jy dink’ie
MM En het ouma rivier toe gegaan toe ouma hokmeisie was?
MJ ‘ee god, ek was’ie eens by die rivier ‘ie
NvR Nee, hy was nou nie by die rivier gewees nie
MM O, was ouma nie?
NvR Mmm
MJ Mmm, ek was nooit ein’lik by die ǀ’habasas [‘inisiasie’] se goed’ie
MM Mmm
MJ Ek was’ie daar’ie
MM En ouma…
MJ Ek is maar net ‘n ou danster, kom maar en sing, al jare
MM Mmm
MJ En nou? ‘n Tiener is mos soos’ie boere, vrouens gaan nie meer hokke toe nie, maar ínkele ou mense wat die jong mense hok toe jaa’
NvR Mmm
MJ Sien jy? Daar is ein’lik, en ek sê, in’ie hokke is net toe-doer-doer loop’y, hy loop soos ‘n ding wat jy nie weet wat gaan daar aan nie, moen ‘om maa’ los, spring
MM Mmm
MJ Roekeloos [?] kry jy mos nou lekker seer woordjies, sien jy? Soos my ou ding, my ou ouma, [inaudible] worry ek nie eers meer nou sien ek ou [g]oed [?], kyk hoe staan hulle, jonk jong mense word
MM Mmm
NvR As mama nou, antie’t mos dan, antie en ma het mos nou baie sak-gehardloop, koelapper [die naam van ‘n dans]
MJ Hei, jou [NvR] ma het mos diè kant toe en dan gaan ek my koers, maar nee wat, die Here het hom gehelp dat hy nou so oud raa-, o’k’ie oud is’ie, hier’ie ding wat hy, ek weet’ie wat loop soek hy weer in daai plek in, plek wat ons van af gekom ‘et, getrek ‘et, toe loop werk hy mos nou weer daar, en daai werk het geword, gemaak laat hy nou dáár lê, jou ou ma, dat hy nou daar lê, toe’s dit dit, ek kom gaan nog hier van af die kant toe, toe hoor ek, “Huh-uh, daai vrou is in Kimberley.” “Wat mekeer?” “Hmm-mmm, hulle kannie verstáán nie.” Toe hy’s getôd [d.w.s. gedood]. Sê ek, nee, hulle is maar so, hulle sien nou wat’et, wat’et besit daai vrou, want nét sek’lik besit [inaudible], o’s altwee’s in èèn, sê ek. Hulle’s mos nét sòmmer afgunstig
NvR Mmm
MJ Mmm, afgun-… gunstig is wat hulle dit gedoen’et aan my, kyk waar sit ek, dis nou by diè vrou, gróót my huis, groot huis gegee, wat darem is daar. [indistinct] Die huis sit hier, maar die kinders…
NvR So ouma het, um um, maar ouma ko’[n] [m]’os nou nie vir antie mos nou kry by die hok ’ie en laat hy met ouma kan met die taal praat’ie, so nie?
MJ Hmm-mmm! Het o’s mos’ie aan gesteur met dit’ie, daai Grukwutale… My oorle ma het lekker gepraat die Grukutaal, en hier’ie ouma van my, hy’s o’k oorlede… O’s is net so geleer, soos ek nou hier’ie doer en daar en diè kant toe, hei, dan sê ek jy moet xuku [‘dinge’] die kyk, en kabasa [sic ǀ’habasas ?] daar’ie…
NvR Mmm
MJ Niks, broer. Jy’t da’ gesien hoe, hoe’t jou ouma gepraat. ‘is nét o’rle ouma grootjie, hy is nou ‘n Sleper van’ie boesmans, Grukwas, hy was nou ‘n Sleper. Nou ’s ek nou so sit ek weet nou niks, al praat’y o’k ‘n taal…
[laughing]
Ek weet niks, nét boertaal is àl wat ons ken, verder niks verder, kyk jy sleep jou ore, pa o’k, hulle sleep hulle daar on’er mekaar, [inaudible] dan k’[an] ek sê, “Hei, moenie so xuxu [?] nie, jy moet loo’ ky’ ”
NvR Mmm
MJ Mmm. En verder my kjend kan ek nie verder sê nie want daai groot mense, hulle’t hier’ie ma’ o’s moe’ tjee pàd, tjee pad wan’ daai mense sla’t
NvR Mmm
MJ Hulle vir o’s afgestof, my oumas hulle, ma’ ‘k is’ie eens vies’ie, ek is nou va’môre op my [inaudible] het ek nou nie só seer gekry het’ie het seker nou va’môre hier gesit, lànkal weg wees…
MM Mmm
MJ [inaudible] God ‘et my nòù niks meer, net dank voor dat ek maar va’môre hie’ is om woord te hoor
NvR Laat Tsiiǁ’hoa [‘God’] nog saam me’ jou saam is
MJ Mmm?
NvR Is… Jy’s nou net bly laat Tsiiǁ’hoa [‘God’] nog saam me’ jou is
MJ Mmm-mmm, jy’s [NvR] o’k maar net jou ma se kind, jong. Hou hulle weer, as ‘ie lewe ‘aar is, dan wil ek weer Kimberley toe gaan met hier’ie sy, hier’re neuk nou op
NvR Mmm
MJ [indistinct] Tsiiǁ’hoa [‘God’], hy weer hele paar sielens, is dis arm wat totaal en niks het, maar verder vir my arm te maak, wee’ jy, Here, ek ‘worry’ nie
NvR So jy’t maar net die tyd, typerk wat uh, wat ouma wil geleer het en wat, uh, wat julle so by die [inaudible] Hei! [shouting at children] Jy! Soos wat ouma, antie maar daar saam met ouma-goed grootgeword het en gesels en so aan, uh
MJ Mmm, maar as ek net kom dan gesels, ek het’ie gedink wat’ie
NvR So antie was eintlik ‘n vlugteling gewees?
MJ Ek gesels ‘ie ein’lik met hulle nie, want daa’ word sommer gesê, “Mors julle doer!”
NvR Uh
MJ “Mors’ie met kjeners ‘ie.” Wane’ hierso groot mense is, o’k nét so kwaai. Jy sit nog lekker en vir jou lèkker afluister wat gesels jy lekker, hy loop kap o’k sy tjommie aan. Nou ons het nie so grootgeword’ie, word ein’lik [inaudible]. En wat, uh, o’rle papa gesê het, “Oo… Dis’ie ee’ste keer dat wat ek sien wat so [inaudible], jy ka’ maa’ loop, dan kan jy maa hoo-, loop luister wat hulle praat daar.” Kom al oor enige teken, maar ek ‘worry’ nie man, ek i’ bly, ‘taan ‘ie meer rond’ie

**********