Ouma Katjie Booysen

Translation of Transcription of a recorded interview with Ouma Katjie Booysen, conducted by Martin Mössmer, with Oupa Niklaas (Poon) van Rooy
Location: Breipaal, Douglas, Northern Cape
Date: 14 September 2018

Underlining indicates emphasis

KB = Ouma Katjie Booysen
NvR = Oupa Niklaas (Poon) van Rooy
MM = Martin Mössmer

MM It is the…
KB But the Lord knows about the matter, it is our…
MM … fourteenth of September 2018, in Breipaal, Douglas, with Ouma Katjie Booysen. Um, do I have Ouma’s permission to make this recording?
KB Yes, my child, but what must I say, I understand, I know…
MM Ouma just has to, just has to say if Ouma agrees Ouma just has to say “yes”.
NvR Yes.
KB Oh.
MM And um, do I have Ouma’s permission to write down the recording and to use it…
KB Yes.
MM … for my research?
KB I know, I… yes.
MM Okay. Thank you, Ouma. Ouma can begin now. Where were you born and where did you grow up and so on?
KB I was born in Voëlfontein, [-30.942868988461967,24.850730895996097] Voëlfontein, is where I was born, my parents told me I was born there. And I grew up there, and from there we moved down to Fabers Put [-28.89945381262234,23.865894824266434] that’s where we actually stayed and I grew up, and where I became a young girl and from there we moved to Erwe [-29.073949896010028,23.745617866516113] and then I met someone, then we married, the man and I, a Booysen man, then we married…
MM Hmm
KB … I was twenty one when we married.
MM And what was Ouma’s maiden name?
KB Dryers.
MM Dryers.
KB Dryers, hmm.
MM Okay.
KB Maiden name, from my parents, my mother’s parents were Dryers, yes. We stayed on Fabers Put for a long time and from there we moved back to Middelputs [-28.88781904733211,23.81698608398437] Only farms, Middelputs. These are the only places where we lived when we were still married. And, then we moved again to where we are now in this location and my husband died here. He worked at the ‘hostel’, and he passed away there, and I was left with the children, left with my six children, but I worked for them then. I worked on the lorries, and eventually I could support them, until they were so old that they could leave, and I’m the only one who needs support now. But it’s difficult…
MM Hmm.
KB … to be without a husband…
NvR Hmm.
KB … your helper. But the Lord is good, he kept me safe through everything, and I am still here among my children.
MM Hmm.
KB Legs, feet, but I drag them along, by the grace of God, because the Lord is good isn’t he? He keeps me safe if I believe, but if I don’t believe… [shakes head]
NvR That’s true, that’s true.
KB … he won’t keep me safe [inaudible, NvR coughing] It isn’t nice to grow old alone in a house with children…
NvR Hmm.
KB … but if you have them, and know they are yours, God gave them to you, you have to raise them.
NvR That’s true, Ma.
KB You have to raise them and all they ask from you is to try, even if you can’t…
NvR Hmm, it’s true.
KB Because one always has to [looks upwards] ask up there, whatever you do, you cannot just carry on like someone who… is for this world.
NvR That’s true.
KB Hmm.
MM And what did your mother and father do? What kind of work did they do?
KB They also did farm work, my ma and pa, they did farm work. We went from one place to the next. Travelled.
MM Hmm. Did you have cattle, Ouma?
KB We had stock, cattle, everything. But we had to do away with everything, everything animals aren’t allowed here, here we could not even have a chicken coop…
NvR Hmm.
KB Everything had to be done away with here, in those years when I grew up. It wasn’t nice.
MM Were they taken away or…?
KB They took them, took everything. But I am still here today.
NvR Hmm.
KB I haven’t got one elderly person [contemporary] here with me, not one, all [indistinct] passed away. I am the only one who is still around with the naughty children, because the children cause problems and the older people have to intervene…
NvR It’s true.
KB … to fix that matter, yes. It’s not nice, my children, not nice, truly.
NvR It’s true, Ma.
KB And since about last week I’ve been, been so ill again…
NvR Hmm.
KB But look at my head, upright… [nothing wrong with my head]
NvR That’s right.
KB … it’s upright [my head is clear] I don’t want to be [on my own] there in that room…
NvR It is so.
KB … I tell the children, ‟I want to sit here, I want to see what is coming or what is passing by, I want to see as well.”
MM Hmm.
NvR See.
KB Yes. But I am thankful to the Lord for sparing me…
NvR It’s true.
KB … that little child cares for me, at the police station they know she cares for me, at the doctors; she is the only one who… takes me round, everywhere. If I have to go to the doctor, if I have to go to the clinic, she is the only one…
NvR Hmm.
KB But I am glad because she looks after me really well.
NvR That is so, is so
KB She’s still very young…
NvR Hmm.
KB … but she takes care of me very well, cares very well, truly, I have no complaints. If I don’t feel well, she runs around, gets a car…
NvR That’s so.
KB Then she takes me to the doctor and she brings me back.
NvR It’s true.
KB True too. Among a hundred children you won’t [easily] find one who cares for you.
MM Hmm.
NvR They don’t care, it’s true, yes.
KB They have no interest, are more interested in drinking.
NvR Hmm.
KB I am thankful she doesn’t drink, neither do I.
NvR Hmm.
KB We take no notice of things like that.
MM Hmm.
KB Do you see the children outside? Huh? Yes them. They stand around for worldly things.
NvR Hmm.
KB I don’t stand around for worldly things, I am ill, if I go outside now they will help me so I can also stand at the gate…
NvR Stand at the gate.
KB … I stand there at the gate and look at the world, then I come back again and lie down. It isn’t nice being old. You are still young, oh, you can still jump, I can’t even jump anymore, my child.
[laughing]
I cannot even jump anymore, but I keep moving because what else can I do? I am a mother in the house.
NvR It is so, yes.
KB I am a mother, every complaint that comes, comes to me of course…
NvR Hmm.
KB … and I have to deal with this complaint, if I cannot deal with it I have to leave it.
NvR That is so, is so.
KB Yes, my children.
MM Can Ouma tell us about the time when Ouma was put in the hok? [kept in seclusion]
KB Ooh…
[laughing]
Ooh. It isn’t pleasant to sit there, my children, it’s not pleasant, man. Uh. You have to do it, the law says you have to do what the old people tell you.
NvR Uh.
KB Sit in that corner, and I sat and sat in that corner, and about the third or fourth week I was taken out and covered, and they took me down to the river. I looked at that big river, and I had to sit in a place where the water could flow over me.
[laughing]
[claps hands] So I sit there but I am in such fear, and I say, ‟What happens if I become dizzy and I fall in here, what will you do then?”
NvR Then.
[laughing]
KB The ouma speaks and the man who took me down to the river puts me on the riverbank and my feet have to be halfway in the water, and that is how I sit. I say he hits the water [claps hands] and they speak their language, I don’t understand their language…
NvR Uh-huh
KB … but those are languages, boy! And when it was finished they took me back to the, to the riverbank. I said, ‟When are we going home?” ‟We are going home, but you have to stand here a while.” It was wonderful, I say, you actually see the fish come…
NvR Uh
KB … near to the riverbank where I was.
NvR Was.
[laughing]
KB The fish came, the barbel… I said, ‟Take me away, take me away because just look at the ugly things coming out of the water!”
[laughing]
No, you have to sit, turn around, he then linked arms with me, and we danced. I say, dust was kicked up as the people danced!
NvR Danced.
KB Hmm. How they leapt. I watched the people, I had to look uh in front of me, but I watched the people, I had to look to the front but I looked at the people who were leaping about.
[laughing]
Ooh, it was lovely. Back at the house, there was hearty eating, and I had to get dressed, oh, then I saw the sun…
NvR Sun.
KB … then I saw the sun which lights the world outside, because you are not allowed to come out [when you are in the hok]
NvR Come out.
KB But if my mother perhaps went to fetch water, I say I rushed out…
NvR Out.
KB [whispering] … I peeped out a little, uh… If I noticed someone [claps] then I quickly moved inside…
[laughing]
… inside behind the curtain.
[laughing]
But truly those were pleasant days
NvR It was pleasant, Ma.
KB Pleasant, it was pleasant, my children, truly, pleasant to be so quiet, and to be alone there. Ooh, when they daubed me with the red stone and I am blood-red, ooh-hoo! I say, ‟Now when are you going to wash the stuff off me? I don’t want this stuff on me.” He says, ‟No, you have to stay like this, until this afternoon, then you can bath, then you can bath and you can get dressed and then you may walk around.” “Oh, hey!” that afternoon, I did not even wait for the afternoon, and I said, “I want to wash, hmm, bring me water too.” And then I washed myself, when I was washed I dressed myself! Ay! A pretty print dress, I say, which looks like this. [waves hands]
[laughing]
After that I am out, I am outside, I am free, they say. ‟Now you are free, now you are a grownup.” [an adult]
NvR You are a grownup.
KB ‟You must now know you are grownup…”
NvR Yes.
KB ‟… and you have to look after yourself…”
NvR After.
KB ‟… if you don’t look after yourself…”
NvR Look after.
KB ‟… it is your own concern.”
NvR Own concern.
[laughing]
KB Oh, it was enjoyable, really.
NvR It was really enjoyable.
KB Hmm, it was nice, my children, really. Really. To be young and to look after yourself is good.
NvR It’s good, my ma, it’s really true.
KB Yes, yes my child, truly…
NvR It’s nice.
KB … it was very nice.
NvR And what she was, she was beautiful, my uh…
KB Ooh… heavens…
NvR … meester, she was very beautiful.
KB Hmm.
NvR And she and Ouma Toet, they still like to wear their beads.
KB Hmm, yes.
NvR Yes, you will immediately see it when you come in, you will see her, no man, this woman is an independent woman, unlike the others.
KB Hmm, yes. No my b-, my beads are inside here…
NvR And her mother, also kept them like that.
KB … they are in a plastic bag, I put them away, my beads are kai [‘pretty’, ‘beautiful’] for kaings that I wear [them].
MM Are they the same beads from that time?
KB Uh-huh.
MM Oh.
KB Uh-uh. No, I gave them to that ouma…
MM Okay.
KB … I don’t want them, don’t want all that stuff on me
[laughing]
MM What kind of beads were they?
KB They are, what does one call them? Do you know what they call those… those cork-like things…
NvR Those that look like a cork, yes…
KB Yes.
NvR …those are the tand-, tandkrale… [tandekrale, jobskrale: false fruit of Coix lacryma-jobi]
KB Yes.
NvR …and then there’s the kriektand, they are mixed, they mix them like that. [possibly kriedoring Lycium spp; krintang krinting Rhus spp. wild currant]
KB Yes.
NvR Hmm.
KB Yes. And then you have to wear this lot around your neck.
[laughing]
You have to wear long earrings… Ooh, I told them I am finished now. Now I tell my children…
NvR Uh.
KB …the oldest girl is Saka, she’s passed on too.
NvR Passed on.
KB Hmm. I say to her, ‟Saka, you have now become a big girl, you have to go in, I have to put you there in the corner [in seclusion] so that you can let the people know where you come from.
NvR You.
KB Hmm. She says, ‟Mama, I am not a chicken, it’s a chicken who sits in there.”
[laughing]
And this all of them [claps] told me [claps], we couldn’t put one [claps] couldn’t put one in there.
NvR Hmm, couldn’t put one in.
KB Not one!
NvR That is so.
KB Truly.
NvR That’s it, my ma
KB Yes. And so they grew up until they were adults.
NvR Oh dear.
KB Hmm, really.
NvR The first one was a ‘sorry’ business, but then it couldn’t happen anymore because it became a secret thing.
KB Uh.
NvR You must actually, actually be cautious.
MM Hmm.
KB Hmm.
NvR Yes, because the, the, the…
KB Yes.
NvR … the white people don’t want to have that stuff done at the rivers….
KB Yes.
NvR … and the others…
MM Is that so?
NvR Yes.
KB Yes.
NvR They don’t want it, it is always them that actually head us off…
MM How?
NvR … that is why we cannot get into the language.
KB Yes. Truly.
NvR We couldn’t get into that language.
KB Hmm. No.
MM So did they when…
NvR Yes.
MM … when people wanted to do that?
NvR Yes, yes, there was… a riot, if chief can imagine it. Because as I said the other day, last year we went to Kimberley. There is a lo-o-ong building, it’s like this, then it comes, then it comes, that is the way they headed us off, at nine o’clock the world had to be silent and out of the way. They showed us that history, all those things. The, the, our elderly people, who knew about these things have all passed away…
KB Yes.
NvR … they are dead, and we cannot take over because there is nothing left now.
KB Hmm.
MM Hmm.
KB It’s really true.
NvR We haven’t got anything now.
KB Nothing nothing nothing.
NvR And look at how the people live today, that person who went into the hok, who we kept in there, she had to eat.
KB Yes.
NvR She had to eat, she had to enjoy her food.
KB No, you had to have good food, because when you came out you had to be plump…
NvR That’s it, yes.
KB … I was actually pink, pink.
NvR Pink.
[laughing]
KB I actually didn’t have my skin anymore, I was pink!
NvR Pink.
KB Pure white! When we can truly say, ‟I am a grownup now,” I told my mother, I said: “I am grownup now! You are not putting me in such a place again.”
[laughing]
My mother said, “We have to follow the law because your grandmother said we had to do it to you.”
NvR Do it.
KB Hmm. And so they really did this to me, truly made me pretty, I came out pretty and that is why I am an adult today and know about everything and I know where I came from.
NvR Oh my.
KB But… Oh, with the people around, to raise children on your own…
NvR Isn’t easy, no, it isn’t easy.
KB It isn’t, it isn’t, it isn’t nice.
NvR Isn’t easy.
KB Isn’t nice.
MM And did Ouma learn the language when Ouma was little?
KB No, I didn’t learn a language
NvR Hmm
KB I didn’t worry about language.
NvR Hmm.
KB Those old Gruku-languages they speak, I, I didn’t ever [claps] learn it, my child. I never learnt things like that…
MM And Ouma’s…
KB … I pretend I’m trying, but I don’t succeed.
NvR Hmm
KB I speak, and then they say it’s wrong, if I speak like that they say no, it’s wrong.
[laughing]
MM And, and Ouma’s mother and father, did they speak [the language]?
KB Yes, yes, yes they spoke languages, they had languages among themselves…
NvR Themselves.
MM Hmm.
KB … when they got together, the grownups. And I found it so funny, I sat and watched them like this…
[laughing]
… because the way they speak is so funny.
[laughing]
Yes, my children. That’s a fact.
NvR Oh my.
KB The children of today, I call them electrician children, I say, ‟We are tallow-lamp children, we don’t know… all the different things you know, we don’t know them.”
NvR Don’t know, yes
KB ‟You are electrician as soon as you fall on the skin [hide] and are born, you already know everything.
NvR Everything.
[laughing]
Because, uh one white man told me this, ‘chief’…
KB Hmm
NvR … do you know, he said to me, ‟Today’s day is different from those long-ago years…”
KB That’s true.
NvR ‟… because that child when it is born he knows, he already knows what is going on.”
KB Yes.
NvR ‟Because, the other day I see a little one, he points at his mother, his mother is pregnant…”
KB Uh.
NvR … he [inaudible] says, ‘do you know what my ma is carrying?’”
KB Yes
NvR And I hesitate a little, I ask, ‟Hey, but what is the child saying now?”
KB Yes… no the child, the child isn’t speaking.
NvR The child was taught, the mother told him, ‟It is a child I am carrying.”
KB Yes.
NvR [Those days] are gone.
KB Yes.
NvR He knows it is a child.
MM Hmm.
KB Yes. They say, today’s grownups tell the child, the children…
[laughing]
… what they are carrying.
NvR Yes.
KB If the child says, ‟Now why are you so fat, my ma?” Then she tells him what she is carrying.
NvR Yes.
KB And we don’t have those things.
NvR We don’t know those things
KB We don’t know those things.
NvR We know about the aeroplane…
KB Hmm, yes.
NvR And about a baboon whose tail was chopped off…
KB Yes.
NvR … that’s what we know. I didn’t understand why my ouma was speaking like that…
KB Yes.
NvR … I was a baboon, then I felt here and said, ‟No, Ma, Ouma, but my… my tail is still intact.”
KB Yes.
NvR She said, ‟It’s okay…”
KB Yes.
NvR ‟… that tail was long, so I chopped it off.”
[laughing]
KB Yes, it’s true. We really didn’t know anything.
NvR But today the children scare me, really, it’s true.
KB No, ooh…
NvR I, I…
KB The smallest child tells you all kinds of things, just like that…
NvR Jo, jo. [shocked]
KB …you get a fright, oh well. We didn’t know things like that.
NvR Things like that.
KB We didn’t know things like that.
MM Does Ouma have any stories to tell? Of Ouma’s youth?
KB Goodness, I haven’t got any stories now, I am tired of talking.
[laughing]
Yes, my children, oh dear.
NvR No, those times were really good times.
KB Truly, they were. Those years were really pleasant, were truly enjoyable, I mean while I was growing up, but now? The world isn’t pleasant now.
NvR Oh my, it is quite dangerous.
KB It’s dangerous, it’s killing, it’s…
NvR All the things.
KB … rape, all the ugly things now.
NvR Oh, the…Ooh…
KB We don’t know this, we don’t know such things, truly. We actually look as if we were raised on a cattle post, because we don’t know anything.
NvR We slept outside, meester.
KB Yes.
NvR Outside.
KB Yes.
NvR On the flats.
KB Hmm.
NvR You see a few lying here, and two over there, and one over there, and over there… that’s how we slept.
KB Yes.
NvR But today we cannot.
KB Hmm-mm, we cannot.
NvR Here in the house is…
KB Even if you had a house, you lay outside.
NvR Yes.
KB But today you cannot, you cannot lie outside. You lie like this, then when something gives… gives you a fright, you look and see someone is standing above you.
NvR Above you.
KB You don’t know what he is looking for, but he’s here!
NvR He’s here.
KB Yes. And if he’s looking for that thing from you, he wants it!
NvR Hey.
KB Or he kills you. I told the children last night, uh, because when she [daughter] tjaile [‘leaves work’], it is already quite late, we lie down but keep the light burning so that she can come in…
NvR Come in.
KB …then we leave the door open and then I say, I cannot fall asleep…
NvR Asleep.
KB … because I lie with an open door…
NvR … and the devil is so busy…
NvR Yes.
KB … that he will send someone to, only the three of us inside…
NvR Inside.
KB … what can we do, your sister is walking outside, and when she gets here we have all been killed.
NvR Killed.
KB Yes.
NvR It’s true.
KB I say, if she’s out or comes in and she says evening, and goes out, bolt the door…
NvR It is true.
KB …because I cannot sleep.
NvR True.
KB Because I fling the blanket back like this, I am watch-, watchful…
KB … if something just creaks I wake up.
NvR Wake up.
KB Now I cannot rest properly.
NvR Rest.
KB When I get up in the morning my body is aching…
NvR Aching.
KB … and I cannot move, because I do not sleep.
NvR That’s true.
KB I watch the door…
NvR That’s right.
KB … to see who is coming in.
NvR Coming in.
KB And, and last night the other little one, goes and looks, the sickly one who gets all those fits [seizures]…
NvR That’s so.
KB … she shuts the door. I get up in the morning, I come out, I go to the door, I open the door and peer out like this, shut the door. Then she comes in and I say, ‟I’ve been sitting here for such a long time, are you not interested in bringing me something to drink? When do you suppose I should have something to drink?”
NvR Drink.
KB Hmm. ‟No, Mama dear, I was outside, I did what and what…” I say, ‟That ‘what and what’, you have to look and see if I am inside first…”
NvR That’s right.
KB ‟Or whether my neuskoker [nostril] is already dry… [Or whether I have already passed on…]”
NvR Dry.
KB ‟… there inside the room. You, you don’t even come to see if my neuskoker is dry.”[ if I am still alive]”
NVR Dry.
KB ‟You only stay with your flowers.”
NvR Yes.
KB ‟Will those flowers be able to speak to you?”
NvR Speak.
KB ‟I speak, but those flowers cannot speak.”
[laughing]
Oh, what’s more, when they say I speak too much, I say, ‟I don’t speak much, just take an interest in me.”
NvR That’s correct.
KB Yes. “Just take an interest then I won’t talk so much.”
NvR Talk so much. Oh goodness.
KB Oh. My children, it’s not nice at all to become old. Oh heavens, it is only by the grace of God.
NvR It’s really only grace, Ouma.
KB Only grace, my children. Dear me.
NvR Dearie me.
KB Oh dear. You come from town or where do you come from?
NvR Yes, Ouma.
MM I come from the University of Cape Town.
NvR From Cape Town.
KB Oh, you come from the Cape.
NvR Hmm.
KB Oh. I was there when I was very young.
NvR I have just been telling the… telling meneer, my old body is also not saying yes any more, Ouma.
KB Mmm?
NvR It’s push and shove, it’s fighting, it’s eh eh eh… it’s running, it’s playing ball, it’s head and it’s eh eh eh…
KB Eh eh eh.
NvR And then, we had to carry heavy burdens on our heads carry them from the river far away.
KB Ooh.
NvR Ooh, goodness. Just be able to eat.
KB Yes, only to be able to eat. Do you know, the wind once pushed me, with the tin can of water on my head, until I stood in the river up to here [hands on waist], but I kept the tin can steady…
NvR Tin can.
KB … and when I saw the water was calm, I moved out with the tin can on my head, and I walked up the hill right to the top and then I removed the can and I looked at the river and said, ‟Did I really come out of this water that is so busy, the water is busy [turbulent; in flood], it is awful…”
NvR Awful.
KB … uh, I removed the, the tin can and then stood, stood and looked at the river, and another woman said, ‟Why are you looking at the water? Put the tin on your head and go home!”
NvR Uh.
KB ‟Or you might be totally gone in a flash!”
KB I said, ‟To what place?” She said, ‟Do exactly what I tell you. Go!”
NvR Go.
KB So I took the tin can, put it on my head and I went home. When I got to the house I told my grandmother, I said, ‟Look! I was in the river up to here because the wind took me…”
NvR Took me.
KB ‟… but, when I felt I was free, I simply walked out!”
NvR Out.
KB Up the hill. And now I am staying here. I’m not going to the river again.
NvR To the river.
KB “I am not going to fetch water again, never again. I’m never going to fetch water again. Yes. [Even] if you can’t, uh, rent a donkey cart and pay the two Rand for water, I’m not going to the water again.”
NvR To the water.
KB And so I really never [claps] went to the river [claps] again. [claps]
NvR Went.
KB Then they said, ‟No, then we have to keep you away from the river, because there might be something that wants…”
NvR Wants.
KB ‟… wants you.”
NvR Yes, yes.
KB Then I asked, ‟What kind of thing is that.” She said, ‟Listen to what I tell you.”
NvR Tell you.
KB ‟He’s… that someone is demanding, he needs you there with him.”
NvR There with him.
KB And so I never again, never, never, never went to the river again.
NvR So you see, Ma.
KB Yes. Ooh, my goodness.
[laughing]
Yes.
NvR No, nowadays they pretend, they are now pretending that a thing like the water snake doesn’t exist.
KB Yes.
NvR They, they, they are still claiming it.
KB Yes, still today.
NvR Still today.
KB Yes, they say there isn’t something like that.
NvR But if he [referring to the water snake] loves you, meneer, he’ll do anything.
KB Hmm, ooh…
NvR Then you will suddenly see something shiny…
KB Uh.
NvR … a mirror is lying there and only you can see it…
KB He makes watches…
NvR Yes.
KB … wrist watches, and yes, of course you would like to have it…
NvR Eh.
KB … you want it, you are there and you want it.
NvR Yes.
KB No-o. Not at all. As soon as you touch that thing you’re gone, you’re with him in his place.
[laughing]
Oh, my goodness, yes. This is what my parents told me, they said, ‟No if he wants you…”
NvR If he wants you.
KB ‟… he makes all kinds of plans to get you, to get you, lots of plans.”
MM Has Ouma seen him?
KB I never saw him, my child, I only saw the pretty things that floated on the water, watches, beads…
NvR He makes all those strange things.
KB … beads, he makes everything that is pretty. And well, what are you? You want to go and look at that thing.
NvR You want to look at it, yes, that’s actually what happened there.
KB Yes, yes, in that way he gets hold of you, he gets hold of you.
NvR He appears as all kinds of things.
KB Yes, all kinds.
NvR He appears as a horse, and later he is… if you see him come out, sometimes, next to the river he looks like [a swarm of] flies…
KB Uh.
NvR … then he looks like a, looks like this and while you look at him you see a very pretty girl.
KB Uh.
NvR And then he even turns into a donkey.
KB Hmm.
NvR Then he turns into an ox, and then look, look he changes to…
KB Yes.
NvR … to lure you.
KB To lure you.
NvR That’s what he is really doing.
KB Yes.
NvR But he exists and every year he, meester, next to the, next to the two rivers…
KB Yes.
NvR … when the rains come down, he makes dust and he makes rain, then he climbs up, you actually see that, when you look you see it is a wolf [hyena] climbing up…
KB Uh… Yes.
NvR … but you don’t know when he’ll be back.
KB Yes.
NvR That is why I understand what I am telling you today, my parents showed me, if it is that day, the day he climbs, they showed us, do you see? There he goes…
KB Hmm.
NvR … there he climbs.
MM Hmm.
NvR And he only climbs at the neus [headland, point] where the rivers meet.
KB Hmm.
NvR That’s why the water flows like that…
KB Yes.
NvR … the Vaal River is on this side, and the Swart River [the Orange River] is over there, they don’t mix, and when it is in flood, meneer, when that, that Swart River is in flood and this one is in flood as well, it pushes back. No, it pushes back.
KB Truly.
NvR This is why we are here today, and these l’habasas and those kind of things, are the reason I know this thing exists.
KB He exists.
NvR You have to cleanse yourself
KB But, but people [claps] don’t want to do it [claps] not today [claps repeatedly]
NvR They cannot. My mother did, and my grandmother sat [in that hok] for three weeks…
KB Hmm.
NvR … up to four weeks, a month…
KB Yes.
NvR … they sat.
KB Because if you are skinny…
NvR Yes, yes.
KB … you have to sit for a month, a month to become fat, when you come out of there you have to look like this [claps]
NvR My daughter, I would like to show meneer what that one daughter of mine looked like when I put her in for three weeks, afterwards my child was beautiful.
KB Oh my.
NvR Then she was beautiful.
KB Yes. Ooh my, pretty.
NvR And she got the man she has now because she looked like that.
KB Oh dear me.
NvR That thing exists, meneer.
KB Yes, he exists.
NvR The water snake exists.
KB He exists.
MM Hmm.
KB He truly exists.
NvR Everyone can’t go to the river. No, no, everyone can’t go to the river, it isn’t each and everyone who can simply go to the river, Ma [KB] can go to the river, which she will do, which she will, she learnt to fling stones over her shoulders…
KB Hmm, hmm.
NvR … right into the water. No! Now that man [the water snake] is conscious of her…
KB Yes.
NvR … but, if a girl goes down there, just like that, no Ma no. That river now is [inaudible].
KB If your child reaches puberty, she reaches puberty here in the house and the river is far away, just go to the tap and do the ritual there…
NvR Hmm.
KB … daub her… her feet, daub her forehead, smear between her shoulder blades… Then she can come in. Yes, it has to be done, it’s a must, you have to…
NvR The law.
KB …[use] water, and if she goes to town, she has to take stones here at the house, and she she…
NvR That’s also true.
KB … has to carry one under each arm and she has to fling a stone over her shoulder this side [left], and over her shoulder that side [right], then she can go to town. But if she doesn’t do it [claps], those wind eddies [whirlwinds]…

…wait on that bridge, when she walks there, that whirlwind…

… stays with her until she is in town and comes back. That whirlwind stays with her all the way. When she is here, she says, ‟Ma, there is a wind that walks with me,” then you have to get up and take off your petticoat and put it on inside out, then you take this child to the tap, because you cannot go to the river, then you have to do the ritual at that tap, drench her to the skin and smear, when you have finished daubing her she can come into the house again.
NvR Come.
KB If you don’t do that, he [ the water snake] comes and takes the girl…
NvR He comes and takes her.
KB … no, he comes and takes her. He calls her, just, like someone calls someone else, my mother said, ‟He calls you.”
NvR And we have buried someone like that.
KB Ai.
NvR We have really buried someone like that. Where did that girl live…
KB Hmm.
NvR … uh, that Pieterse girl…
KB Hm-mm-mmm
NvR … he took her from there right into my house…
KB Hmm.
NvR … when they took my daughter he felt, and then he said, ‟No, all right, you don’t want to come with me,” so he [the water snake] left.
KB Hmm.
NvR No! Meneer… hey… He went down, then he… and that child lay there, her back was broken. She was buried, that child was buried.
KB Hmm.
NvR That’s why you have to do it right, the bones, the sheep you slaughter, isn’t slaughtered like other sheep.
KB Hmm.
NvR No, there is a part…
KB Yes.
NvR … he says his is intact here…
KB Like this.
NvR … forequarters, these are intact.
KB Hmm.
NvR And, his aitchbone…
KB Hmm.
NvR …is not cut, you take only the leg… the leg of mutton…
KB Yes.
NvR … you take it from the rump…
KB Yes.
NvR … and you cook it like that.
KB Yes, that is how you cut it.
NvR Yes, that’s what you do.
KB Hmm, yes. And then on that morning you must take that thing…
NvR Yes.
KB … down to the river, then you have to throw it in, so it sinks, it is the payment…
NvR Hmm.
KB … which you give to him. That morning I saw fish, barbel with heads like this…
[laughing]
… I said, ‟Take me away! Look at those ugly things,” and they said, ‟No, sit, sit, you will see they will soon come close to you and then they will swim past you.”
NvR Past.
KB I then sat there, and they really came and passed by me, passed by me, and they were gone…
NvR Hm!
KB … then I was taken out of the water, and I went home, and I am still here today. My children, oooh! They say they aren’t chickens.
NvR No chickens, that’s what they say.
[laughing]
KB [claps] They aren’t chickens. Yes…
MM We’re done, Ouma.
KB Thank you. Yes, my children.
NvR [inaudible]
KB It’s nice to be young, but you must always follow the law.
NvR Yes.
[laughing]
KB But our children don’t do such things.
NvR Yes, no such things
KB Hmm-mmm
NvR She sees the hok [inaudible].
KB She’s not a chicken.
[laughing]
Hmm, she’s not a chicken.
NvR Hmm, heavens.
KB Yes.
MM Ouma, thank you very much for the conversation.
KB Thank you, meneer.
MM I’m very grateful.
KB Thank you.

*******